tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8446705.post116524496613562989..comments2023-09-26T05:08:11.190-05:00Comments on Rick's Reflections: Willard on DiscipleshipRick Rosshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03203445347348671817noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8446705.post-1165329720110164542006-12-05T08:42:00.000-06:002006-12-05T08:42:00.000-06:00Yes, Jeff. I think we're all pretty much saying t...Yes, Jeff. I think we're all pretty much saying the same thing.<BR/>Thanks for the great thoughts. Your insightful comments always cause me to think more deeply. Josh, Randy, Rick, yours' also. Thank you all for this discussion .<BR/><BR/> Let me pose this question for us all to ponder and discuss and bounce off the persecution idea: Since we are the aroma of Christ, doesn't that mean that some will be repulsed by us, not drawn to us. Paul writes in 2 Cor that to those who are perishing we are the smell of death.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09958802674036850912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8446705.post-1165293236913138812006-12-04T22:33:00.000-06:002006-12-04T22:33:00.000-06:00I think for the most part we are saying the same t...I think for the most part we are saying the same thing but feel the need to clarify some of my comments about growth. I think numerical growth will follow spiritual growth for one reason. If we grow spiritually, I believe we will become the aroma of Christ and if we become the aroma of Christ I believe more people will be attracted to us and want to be a part of the family. <BR/><BR/>It seems in the midst of persecution the early church grew. It seems that when we are under attack as a country or a family, we come together. My opinion (yes, that and 50 cents will get a cup of coffee) is that if, as Christians, we really knew persecution we would grow inwardly, become stronger in our faith and others would join us.<BR/><BR/>Maybe it would be good if there was a way to measure spiritual growth but I think if God wanted that, He could have set it up for us. So, we all need to take on our own measurement of ourselves and if we follow Him and become His disciples, I think others will follow us to the same hope and joy we have.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00606199377889821435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8446705.post-1165290583970637172006-12-04T21:49:00.000-06:002006-12-04T21:49:00.000-06:00I like what is being said here and agree.So often ...I like what is being said here and agree.<BR/><BR/>So often in recent times our focus of evangelism has been converting folks to a system of beliefs or a right way of thinking-- getting "doctrinally sound", if you will. <BR/><BR/>Don't get me wrong, I most certainly believe in the utmost importance of sound doctrine and the necessity of it, but that is not what conversion is about. That is not what transformation is about. I echo the sentiments above that we are to be converted to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and transformed into His likeness. Conversion is not about understanding and acting upon a correct doctrinal position devoid of a personal relationship with Jesus. We are not converted to a church, but we are converted to a Person.We are converted out of darkness into light. The more we love Jesus, the more we want to do what He says-- we are being transformed-- we are walking in the light.<BR/><BR/>As far as church growth, I'm not sure if spiritual growth equals numerical growth. Our fleshly eyes just cannot see with absolute clarity the spiritual growth process. (There is only One Who sees perfectly clearly in that realm). I suppose that is why we mortals do look at the numbers. Numbers are the guage by which we measure but they are not the reality in and of themselves, and in fact, the numbers could be misleading. <BR/><BR/>Under intense persecution,wouldn't it perhaps be likely that there would be tremendous spiritual growth in the church and yet little numerical growth? After all, if disciples were being killed faster than they were converted wouldn't that stand to reason? But then again, I think that maybe there would indeed be numerical growth in intense persecution because there would be no fair weather followers of Jesus with a lukewarm approach to life. And nonbelievers would be drawn to the Way because of believers' discipleship.<BR/><BR/>Good stuff here!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09958802674036850912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8446705.post-1165285924240560872006-12-04T20:32:00.000-06:002006-12-04T20:32:00.000-06:00Like many, I struggle with whether my focus should...Like many, I struggle with whether my focus should be inward, trying and perhaps selfishly trying, to improve my own spirituality rather than sharing the good news. I'd like to believe that the former follows the latter but it's difficult to see much evidence that growth is associated with inward spiritual growth. I'd have to go back to the first century Jerusalem church for an examply and I'm not sure separated in time and culture that I understand much about the spiritual life of those Christians. Perhaps it's just as simple as doing out best to live as He did.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8446705.post-1165258925582737812006-12-04T13:02:00.000-06:002006-12-04T13:02:00.000-06:00I have always thought that a church that was spiri...I have always thought that a church that was spiritually growing would grow numerically and a church that didn't grow spiritually would see a decrease in growth. Naturally, some of that may be a factor of outside pressures such as the economy and whether people are moving in or out of a community. Yet, I still believe a growth pattern is evident based on the spiritual growth of the body.<BR/><BR/>I have long held the opinion that our desire to count heads in Bible class and worship is a bit misguided. I feel it causes a church to focus on symptoms and not problems. When the focus of a body is discipleship and it is played out in the lives of that body counting want be an issue because you won't be able to keep up with the growth.<BR/><BR/>Whether our church is filled with 1 or 1,000 is not relevant. Having a church filled with people on fire for serving God will say more than the roll ever will.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00606199377889821435noreply@blogger.com